| Trumpet: | 1230 |
| Trombone: | 338 |
| Alto Sax: | 238 |
| Tenor Sax: | 122 |
| Baritone Sax: | 18 |
| Other horns: | 4 |
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SkaMasta097
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Posted: 2008-06-30 23:17 CET | |
| Being a band nerd I find it easier to write out horn riffs on staff arrangements. It's also good to have all parts together to see how the horns harmonize with each other. I know Savage has some Finale files. Are there any copyright issues, as long as you credit the original artist and record label? | ||
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Savage
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Posted: 2008-07-02 07:16 CET | |
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You know, I've thought about that a bit too, and really, we're using our own ears to pick out these songs, and however we choose to write them down is up to us. If we choose to tab them, or put them into a program with the capability to play them back, it's really up to us. I think it's the equivalent of posting a funny joke you heard from a professional comedian on a forum. On top of that, we're helping people across the world to play music they may not have the time, effort, or capability to figure out themselves. We're giving people a chance at having their favorite song be their trumpet practice, a chance at making their high school band learn enough covers to play their first show. A chance at getting the most enjoyment out of their instruments that they can. In any case, we're not using anything we transcribe for profit (I hope), and so until Streetlight Manifesto or the cops show up at my house and tell me to stop transcribing, I'm going to keep going. Sorry...in any case, as far as I know they don't have too much in the way of ska sheet music, and if they did I'm sure lots of us would actually go buy some. That market isn't covered, so all we have is the bunch of us that can create sheet music from the audio tracks, and as long as we're not making any money, then copyright shouldn't come into play. Here in Canada, it's not actually illegal to download songs from limewire or other P2P programs, as long as it's for personal listening, so I can't imagine this would be any different. In other places they may be a little touchier on the subject. This is all just my musing though, does anyone have any real evidence about this? |
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SkaMasta097
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Posted: 2008-07-02 08:24 CET | |
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I was just curious, but you're right. Just like with guitar tabs, it's considered your interpretation of the song. I think the real issues with copyrights are more concrete things like lyrics or sampling, but transcribing instrument riffs are different. It's how we interpret the songs. No matter how hard we try, it won't be exactly to the T how the original artist wrote it. But that's not a bad thing; every musician has their own musical personality. LOL @ Streetlight/the cops showing up at your house. But yeah it's totally for my enjoyment and the enjoyment of horn players everywhere, no profit at all. I love transcribing music. And I agree, we are helping horn players who can't figure out the songs on their own. And nothing against this site at all, but I find tabs odd for horns. I understand though, that some people find tabs easier, especially those who justed picked up a horn. I contribute tabs to this site, so I'm not totally against them. I just feel that staff notation/sheet music is more natural for horn players, because most are used to it from playing in band class. Plus, you can get a key signature and rhythm, which tabs can't give you. Thank God that there are individuals like myself and savage who will write out full horn section arrangements. By the way Savage do you just write the riffs, or do you put in the rests and the song structure in too? the latter can get quite time consuming 
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SkaMasta097
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Posted: 2008-07-02 08:26 CET | |
| also, what finale files do you have? I have Supertones - Little Man, Dingees - Summer, and Link 80 - Verbal Kint | ||
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Savage
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Posted: 2008-07-03 22:37 CET | |
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Ya, I don't think bands are that concerned with people being able to play their songs, because it would take a full and committed band to do it properly, and you're not competition until you're making money playing their songs, and most bands would rather write their own songs once they get to that point anyway. If bands do cover songs it's usually either because they're still working on their own, or as a tribute (or change of genre like Phil Collins' Another Day in Paradise covered by RBF). Good point about it not being exactly to the T too, even IF a band somehow got away with playing another song and making money doing it, people would remember the original and want to hear that too (like in the case of SM covering Keasbey Nights, there's a thread here somewhere that shows how hard it is to choose between the original Catch 22 versions, and SM TRIED to change them, and improved a lot of them in my opinion). I agree with your opinion on tabs too. Technically, horn tabs would be fingering charts, and that would be awkward to make, and there's really no rhythm when you read tabs (I know you're supposed to know the song already, but there are sometimes counter melodies that people may not realize are there, and confuse people into thinking the tab is just horribly wrong). A lot of people like tabs though, and you don't need a program to write them down (or actually to even know the rhythms) which makes them much easier for all kinds of people to create and read. I will write out tabs every now and then, but I would much prefer to write sheet music, and I hope everyone that just uses tabs and can't read sheet music at least does themselves the favour of learning to do that. If not, oh well, but you're missing out on a lot. I'm not quite sure what you mean about the riffs, but if it answers your question, I always try to make it so if you start the original recording and the finale playback at the same time (which is actually quite difficult to do) they will play side by side the whole time, but lately I've been a little lazy with the exact tempo. That's why in my files there are always multi bar rests, they're actually the length of time the horns aren't playing (and if they're not then please tell me because that probably means I screwed up). Just writing the riffs takes about 10 minutes, getting the playback to sound relatively correct takes a lot longer as you said. I don't have much any more, anyone that's dealt with me lately knows I lost a lot of files and I'm repopulating, but right now I have: Yakety Sax Blank Stare-Planet Smashers Centerfold-Against All Authority? Everything Went Numb, Here's To Life, We Will Fall Together, Watch It Crash (the the trumpet part at the end)-Streetlight Manifesto Pizza Day- Aquabats |
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SkaMasta097
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Posted: 2008-07-05 01:08 CET | |
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Exactly! I learned music in school for years. Staff is what I read and write. Tabs for me are a downgrade. With staff you get pitch, octave, rhythm, key signature, and you see how each horn compliments each other. Like you said, a tenor sax part might nit sound right by itself because it usually supports and harmonizes with the trumpet, who is playing the main melody. Horn lines are usually not unison, especially with ska and music that uses horn sections of 3 or more players. Ok so you basically do what I do. You write out the horn parts first, then put all the rests in. Besides being time consuming, that's a lot of rests to write, and often the phrases repeat (verse, chorus, bridge) Do you actually write the repeating phrases over and over or do you just write each phrase once? Sometimes I wonder if it's better to just write the parts that the horns play and let the horn players figure out the song structure for themselves. By the way, I forgot to say this in my first reply, but there is at least one ska horn book I know of...The Insyderz made a horn book for their Skalelluia! album. but you're right though, they're rare. Would you mind sending me "We will fall Together" and "Pizza Day"? I can send you some or even write some out by request. If we join our knowledge of music together, we can rule the galaxy! LOL |
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Savage
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Posted: 2008-07-05 07:31 CET | |
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It sounds like we work in a similar way, but I'm not sure we have exactly the same take on this, so I'm just going to throw exactly what I do out there, and you can compare it to your method. First off, I have to set up the Finale file, so I skip through the song to figure out the time signature (which is 9 times out of 10 4/4), the key, tempo (sometimes I'll do it now and sometimes I'll leave it until part way through the song when I get pissed off that the playback and original track aren't the same) and what instruments I hear (which I can normally just pick out by knowledge of the bands). After that, I work in sections a lot of the time. I'll put the song on and listen to the first line, then input it into Finale right away. If I'm feeling lazy, I'll sit there with my saxophone or a crappy little roll-up keyboard and play along, but most of the time I just use a tuner for the first pitch (or the finale playback) and just go by ear. At this point I do one of two things depending on the difficulty of the song. I'll either write the whole ensembles parts down for that one line, and then move to the next, or I'll pick out one instrument, and follow it throughout the song, line by line (most of the time I'll start off doing the first one, and then get bored and just follow the melody for the instant gratification. In either case, once I've finished the section and come to a point where the horns aren't playing, I'll count the bars until the next time the horns play, and then start the next section at the appropriate bar. I put the form of the song in as I go (in case by "rests" you meant the huge pauses while there are no horn lines). If there are repeated parts, I'll remember and copy the whole part with the mass edit tool, but you have to be careful for minute differences in repeated parts, they exist every so often. I also put the rhythms in as I go (in case by rests you meant you just figure out the notes like tabs and then come back and put the right rhythms in, or "then put all the rests in"). You meant one of those two by the "rests" I think, I'm just still not certain which one, but either way, I do both as I go, I never have to come back and insert any rests once I pass a bar (unless of course I'm doing a different part: I do the trumpet line and come back for the trombone or something like that). Just to finish off, sometimes I'll put articulations in as I go, but most of the time I come back for those. The articulations aren't so much to help the player as to just make the playback sound closer to the recording (most of the time they go hand in hand, but I do end up with things that are purely just because they sound good in playback and if a real player did it it would be wrong). Last (and least actually) I'll set the volume levels on all the instruments and put dynamics in (TOTALLY for playback, because as you probably know, for some reason when a trumpet plays mf and a trombone plays ff they come out almost the same volume for some reason. My goal when I'm done is to have a practice piece that someone could mimic while they play, or (apart from the dynamics and articulations used for playback) actually stand up on stage and sight read with the band (and not sound out of place). You should be able to play the hornlines off the screen and when the horns aren't playing, sing along (since you probably know the song) while you watch the rests go by. I think if everyone practised with this method, they would learn their songs a lot faster, and as a bonus, absorb some note reading skill as they go (provided they have enough to read it in the first place). Alternatively, people interested in learning to read music could use these files to play along with songs they've already memorized, and learn a bit about reading music off the staff by playing songs they already know. Just getting the lines out there would be a lot faster and easier, and most players would be able to figure out the structure for sure, but I don't think (barring any time restraints) I'll ever do that. Maybe I'm a perfectionist, but even if I did do that, I'd add the structure. It wouldn't seem finished if it was just parts. I'm not happy until you could essentially sight read my music beat for beat and play along with the recording perfectly. So I figure if I'm going to polish it anyway, I might as well wait until that point to give it away. Hopefully no one complains because I'm TOO thorough, and if they do (because I know the bars of rests might get annoying if you're just trying to quickly learn the parts), then it's easy to remove bars of rest and send it out all smushed together. So far, no one has said anything. Wow, really. I had assumed there must be a few out there, but I had never actually heard of any in existence (although I've never heard of that band before either, but I will do some research on them soon). I don't know why more ska bands don't do it, a lot of horn players would buy it, and it's something that is still relatively safe (as opposed to the cd's which anyone can download from file sharing programs or torrents). People that want sheet music actually have to go out and buy sheet music (or else find someone to transcribe it for them, which is much harder than downloading limewire). I can send you those songs, but probably not for a few days. I should be able to do that on Monday or Tuesday, but we'll see what happens. Thanks for the offer about writing music, but I'm sure you'll understand that I like transcribing, and if I have a request, I'll probably just do it myself. Maybe in the future I'll need something and won't have the time, or I'll want a 2nd opinion or something like that, so I'll definitely come to you first in a case like that. I'd love to see what you've done with the three songs you mentioned before, so those would be great to send me, and any other ska songs I can add to my collection (I LIKE to do them myself, but hey, if they're already done, I'll take them). Oh, and as always, any critiques, 2nd opinions, or questions you have about any of my pieces are always welcomed too. Lol, rule the galaxy! Sounds like fun! Although we might need a little more than 2 guys and some music writing software. |
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SkaMasta097
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Posted: 2008-07-09 19:14 CET | |
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Savage, thank you for the long reply, it doesn't go unappreciated. That's very interesting to know how you write out horn parts for songs. Now let me break down how I do it. First I'd like to mention that I am a percussionist/drummer who jams with a bassist and we've been trying to start a ska band. The only horns we've had were a trumpet and an alto sax, both of which were ok at their instruments. Because I know music theory, I can arrange horn parts even though I've never played a horn. I had to learn the ranges of various horns and how to tranpose but I eventually got it. I started out finding songs that exclusively featured alto sax or trumpet (sadly the two players never got together at once) If the songs didn't have those horns in them, I substituted by writing them in a different octave. I even wrote Bankshot by Op Ivy for trumpet, even though the melody was played by a lead guitar. For alto sax, I took a trumpet or tenor sax part and wrote it in a good octave for alto sax. For the trumpet player, I had to often write everything down an octave because he couldn't hit past a high E and even that was tiresome for him. Sadly, the trumpet player moved and the alto sax player got to a point where he could learn everything by ear, and didn't need sheet music, so I stopped writing. However, during the time when I wrote specifically for them, I would listen to a song, fish out the notes on my piano keyboard, and simply write it out in Finale 2002. I wrote it out beat for beat, rest for rest, start to finish verbatim, exactly how it was meant to be played as if the horn player had never heard or seen the tune before [pretty much how you did it!  ]Recently, in the aftermath of lacking horn players, I joined this site, submitted a few tabs, and after being here a while, found out that you [Savage] write full horn arrangements in Finale. That inspired me to do the same! It was sad to have no horn players, but now there were no limitations! no more worrying about range problems or anything! I realized how much more beneficial it would be to write for a full horn section instead of just individual parts: 1) I could always copy and paste individual horn parts if need be 2) The correct arrangement, harmony, etc. for all horns would be all laid out and ready for any horn player (in my area or over the internet) to play as they desire. I would be doing a good thing and a huge benefit to horn players everywhere, especially since you can't just buy these things anywhere! I arranged some tunes (the ones I mentioned before), and have a few more now. I arrange the song exactly how it is on the recording, and according to the knowledge of what horns the band had at the time. I don't write in rests right now, to save time and paper, and also because it's hard to write a 32 measure rest in Finale lol but judging by your method I am tempted to go back to writing in rests. I am debating whether I should write for all horns, for the benefit of people who play other horns than the ones on the recording, but I am just sticking to the exact horns for now. I guess you could write for all horns if it's unison, but it gets confusing once you start dealing with harmonies and you have to decide which horn plays which note. that said, with all the possibilities, it's almost easier to write an original song than say write an alto sax part for a Less than jake song. Thank you Savage for sending me the files. I will send you mine when I get back home in a few days. Let me rephrase my request, since you obviously need no help in writing horn parts (which is a good thing): Since we know that we can both transcribe/arrange horn parts, what do you say we work together? I'll write out my favorite songs, you write out yours, and together we can eventually make an archive of songs for horn players everywhere to learn and play! maybe even put one up on the internet. you can definitely share mine, just as long as you note that it's me that took the time to arrange it. I would do that in finale but I don't know how. anyways thanks savage and take care! |
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Savage
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Posted: 2008-07-11 05:51 CET | |
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We are both usually a little long winded, so I'm going to try to be relatively brief (even though I appreciate your long reply just as much). That's too bad about your lack of horn players, but I'm glad the site is giving you something to work toward, and I never would have guessed I would be an example like this, but if that's the way you see it, thank you very much, that's amazing. I'm also glad that you understand where I'm coming from with the long rests, it just adds to the way I like to do things (I like your word choice): verbatim. You don't have to do them, but if you choose to, it's not actually that hard. If you're having trouble doing it by memory, then play the song from just before the end of the horn line, and switch to Finale. Count along with the song and click the right arrow button (which moves the song one bar at a time) every bar. When the horns come back in, then you start transcribing from that bar. I agree, it is easier at first to just write an original, but that's why so many bands do that already (even ones with guitar players that can't read music), and so few people transcribe music. Writing a good original song should be harder than transcribing one, but it all depends on how much theory and analysis you put into writing your songs. After a while though, it will be so easy to transcribe songs that it becomes pretty even. I think teaming up is a great idea. With two of us working, we should have a whole bunch of songs done in just a short time, and once we have a few, we could look into archiving them, or maybe even creating a sister or sub-site to horntabs.net for people that want sheet music or single instrument play along tracks. I haven't put much thought into taking credit for the transcriptions. I normally just put the band name in the artist slot, and leave it at that, but that's a good idea, so maybe a while from now we can look back and see who did what, or how many each of us has done, or better yet, people that we send the files to can remember who they got it from in case they forgot, but want to request another file. I propose we keep the band name as artist, but maybe we could put "Transcribed by: Name" in the section for copyright information, as a sign that we transcribed it, and that way, no one should take credit for work someone else has done (not that either of us would try anyway). I can show you how to do all of this (and probably a lot more) later, maybe over msn or some other instant messaging program. Anyway, sounds like a good idea, and something we should talk about in real time. Until then, I look forward to working with you, and you have my email. Savage P.S. I would recommend doing a streetlight song when you have the time. It really helps you appreciate all the work that goes into every part, and it's killer for training your ear. Once you do a few of those, eevrything else will be a piece of cake. |
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Savage
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Posted: 2008-07-11 05:52 CET | |
P.P.S. Did I mention I'm not very good at being brief? 
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SkaMasta097
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Posted: 2008-07-11 18:19 CET | |
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Yes I am very longwinded, LOL. But don't worry about being brief. Say everything you need to say. Yes you're absolutely right. It kind of sucks to have lost the few horn players I knew, but at least now I can write/transcribe for a greater purpose. The trumpet player, grateful as he was that I wrote music for him, encouraged me to keep my finale files and contribute to the horntabs site. And yes, although you never would have thought, you were and still are an example and an inspiration for me to continue to transcribe horn arrangements for ska songs. It's very comforting and pleasing to know that I'm not alone and that there's someone else out there passionate about doing the same thing as I do. The rests are not THAT hard, you have a point. I find it much easier to input all the horn riffs and rests start to finish than to go back and put them in. The only problem is when you have a band like the Dingees, whose horns don't come in until 1/2 way or 3/4 way through the song, and play a simple, repetitive riff. Nothing against the Dingees, they are good, but for a song like "Summer", for example, I find it easier to just write the riff itself without all the rests (that's ALOT of resting  But for other songs I'll do it. I found out and easier way to put in rests. Go to the measure tool, click on a measure and insert the desired # of rests, then highlight them and click Creat Multi-measure rest. I agree, transcribing will become easier the more I do it, especially after I try to transcribe Streetlight! lol. I tell you what though. Whenever I have a ska band, you bet I will transcribe the horn parts. I like the idea of a sister site. I will contribute as many songs as I can. For arrangement credit, I figured it out. for artist put: Artist name ; Arr. Your name. and for year put original year and arr. year. That's how they do it in classical sheet music, anyway. I am looking forward to this project too. definitley msn or aim too. I really dig Link 80 and aquabats, so I've been working on songs by them. Streetlight? ha those guys have a crazy good horn section. it's not your typical ska. they play the hell out of their horns and it sounds like it's influenced by eastern European music. I would do a streetlight song, as long as it's not too hard. you already did the one I wanted to do though lol. All those harmonies in their horn section! the aquabats songs give me trouble so I might not be able to handle Streetlight just yet. but anyhow..awesome! I will keep working on the songs I started on. talk to you later. |
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Savage
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Posted: 2008-07-13 03:18 CET | |
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It is good to know that someone else feels the same way, gives you a little more inspiration, or at least, it did for me. I normally do Streetlight stuff, so I've never really come across that problem, it normally starts and ends with horns. suppose if I did, I would do the same, and yes, multimeasure rests do make it easier when you print it out. I guess you use page view when you transcribe. I normally use studio view, which doesn't show multimeasure rests, so I don't use them a lot...maybe I should start looking at my songs in all views before saving them though. Great, transcribing horn parts is key to having good covers, which helps the band become tight, which makes a good band that can learn original songs quickly. That makes sense, the only reason I didn't do it that way in the first place was because they actually don't give you a lot of space in the Artist field. Sometimes you can't even fit two names in there. I will add you on msn soon. I've never heard of Link 80, but I agree about the Aquabats. I guess I'll keep on the Streetlight songs (they're my favorite to do anyway), and I think I'll do some Reel Big Fish too. Streetlight does have amazing lines, and players too. Their influences are a totally different conversation that would take a while. Ya, you really have to listen if you want to do a Streetlight song, I'd stay with the Aquabats if they're giving you trouble, but try to move up every once in a while, at least get the main melody of a Streetlight song. I'll keep working too, and I'll talk to you later. |
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SkaMasta097
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Posted: 2008-07-13 08:25 CET | |
| dude you need to hear Link 80. They are (were) underground ska-core from the East bay area. They sound similar to, and are from the same area as Op Ivy. Except they have way more horns. They have trumpet, sax, and on some recordings they have trombone too. The horn lines are pretty simple. They usually follow the chord progressions, which are usually power chords. You'd think that would sound lame and boring but they make it work. Their albums are hard to find though. check amazon or youtube to check out Link 80 | ||
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tenormaphone
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Posted: 2008-07-24 21:47 CET | |
| I'm getting ready to put a few pieces for low brass and woodwinds up for my marching band on finale but that's all. The list includes Moondance by Van Morrison, Escorpion by Jay Dawson, Let's Groove, and the march: Little Champ, I'm also putting my alto part up for Tank! from Cowboy Bebop. Very hard and Finale messes up the solo, it sounds like there are only clicks because it is so fast. | ||